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Bowden brake cables are being gradually replaced with hydraulic brakes on enthusiast bicycles, yet Bowden shift cables are being replaced with electronic systems.

(1) Has anyone developed hydraulic shift systems? It would appear they would have the benefits of both worlds:

  • elimination of cable friction,
  • instantaneous, literally more fluid, application of tension on derailleur springs,
  • no need to ever think about recharging a battery (nor would interference ever be "on the radar", if this issue arises), and
  • if hydraulic systems can be made to be reliable enough for braking, they would surely be reliable enough for shifting. (Reliability presumably explains why brake systems could never be wireless.)

If none has been developed, (2) is there any reason why a hydraulic system would not be suitable for shifting?

Edit

I did ask two distinct questions (1) and (2) above — sigh …

Still, I can checkmark only one answer.

It's now clear that the answer to (1) is not unique, but an answer to (2) may be unique, and so I'm changing the title to be (2) instead of (1).

Sequel

It's worth nothing that rather than heading towards abandoning electronics in favour of a hydraulic-only system for both braking and shifting, Shimano seems to be moving towards an electronic-only system, as suggested from their electronic braking patent.

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    A randonneur, at least those I know, would never use anything but simple mechanical deraillleurs that they can maintain with tools in their saddle pouch.
    – DavidW
    Commented Jul 22 at 21:19
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    The return action of a hydraulic brake piston can be done by a small flex of the piston seal. You'd need something with far more return travel, which probably means a spring. At which point your mechanism is just as complicated as a mechanical derailleur with the added problem of fluid leaks and needing to be bled... Also a mechanism that precisely meters a specific amount of fluid every time the shifter is pressed seems a lot more complicated than a simple mechanical ratchet.
    – DavidW
    Commented Jul 22 at 21:23
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    @DavidW hydraulic brakes of course (commonly) have a spring between the pads - but a much lighter one than a derailleur would need
    – Chris H
    Commented Jul 23 at 5:38
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    And for randonneuring, people do use electronic shifting. I don't, but I saw a rider's account of London-Edinburgh-London with Di2, a hilly 1500km on less than a single charge
    – Chris H
    Commented Jul 23 at 5:39
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    @ChrisH That spring is just to stop the pads from rattling around in the caliper. It’s in no way stiff enough to meaningfully help push the pistons back in.
    – MaplePanda
    Commented Jul 23 at 5:49

7 Answers 7

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if hydraulic systems can be made to be reliable enough for braking, they would surely be reliable enough for shifting

This is plain wrong assumption.

Hydraulic brake systems are used in motor vehicles for maybe a century and yet one does not see much hydraulic parking brakes.

Why is this? The leaks.

Bowden cables are good at maintaining mechanical tension for very long periods. You can leave your bike at certain gear and find it in the same state after a year. Ditto for a car parking brake where the same technology is used.

On the other hand, if you apply force to a hydraulic system, you will find it gradually losing pressure over hours or even minutes. This still qualifies as a good braking system, but for shifting gears will be unacceptable.

An engineer may be tempted at using two tubes for transferring the commands up/down in hydraulic-compatible manner - but you will get two tubes instead of a single cable.

As other answers suggest, hydraulic shifting systems are developed and even produced, but this is not what hydraulic technology is good at and it is unlikely that such a system will be reliable long term.

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    2 out of the 3 examples given in this page are using 2 hoses per shifter (Acros and Kindernay) probably for the described reason.
    – Rеnаud
    Commented Jul 25 at 12:51
  • (Hydropneumatic shifting/clutching systems are used in trucks, though. AFAIK, they transfer the "change" signal. However, for a bike where one's seat is mostly directly attached to the frame advantages like the mechanical decoupling of the shifting lever from the shakings of the frame just don't apply)
    – cbeleites
    Commented Jul 26 at 0:09
  • @cbeleites powered hydraulic systems are profoundly different thing. They are not as much about decoupling as they are about applying arbitrary more power and force. They are inapplicable in bikes, first because of scarcity of power and second because no mechanism there requires much of power in the first place.
    – fraxinus
    Commented Jul 26 at 5:27
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Acros - a German components maker built a system called the Acros A-GE hydraulic shifting system. Bikemag.com and Pinkbike.com wrote articles on it. There were some used parts for sale but I couldn't find the A-GE on their website https://acros-components.com

A company called Rotor developed a hydraulic mountain bike drivetrain including derailleur, cassettes, hubs, and shifters. singletracks.com wrote an article on it. There is a 1x13 shifting set available on their website.

There may be other examples...

It is possible and has been done but it has not caught on widely.

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Kindernay used hydraulic shifters for their internally geared hubs, that was marketed for heavy duty applications (input torque: 160Nm, vs 130Nm for Rolhoff). The company went bankrupt in 2023, though.

Kindernay shifters

On the "why hydraulic shifting has not been developed further": I suspect that for braking, there are benefits linked to the pressure required to brake (I haven't tried high-end mechanical disc brakes to have a valid comparison), but you don't need high forces for shifting. Compared to electronic shifting, yes, there's a battery to charge, but the added value of electronic shifting is not only about shifting accuracy and speed, but also in a simpler operation (no need to worry about cross-chaining, and even which derailleur to operate, automatic operation for ebikes) and customization (assigning the function you want to each button, how shifting is sequenced, adding buttons,...). Not sure that an hydraulic transmission can offer that, it would still be a variant of a mechanical transmission.

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    About your last sentence: it’s probably possible to build some kind of hydraulic computer much like what’s in a car’s automatic transmission, but that would be quite heavy and really quite pointless compared to an electronic equivalent.
    – MaplePanda
    Commented Jul 23 at 5:51
  • @MaplePanda I don't disagree indeed, as you'd need an actuator for the hydraulic system itself, but there's probably little benefit of having the actuator for the hydraulic system rather than on the transmission itself. But as I understand it, most of the benefits of electronic are to linked to the shortcomings of double chainring transmissions, in single chainring/IGH there's less need for that.
    – Rеnаud
    Commented Jul 23 at 6:01
  • @Rеnаud most of the benefits of electronic transmission are linked to the higher price tag that brings sweet sweet income to the manufacturer! - Regarding mechanical discs: the ones on my gravel bike work really well, but hydraulic discs still feel smoother and more direct. Commented Jul 25 at 16:31
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A large part of it has to do with the engineering constraints on a shifting system and what hydraulics are actually good at.

For a shifting system to work reliably, the shifting mechanism has to index to exactly the same place every single time. Some limited drift is OK, but it’s got to be small enough that you don’t need to re-adjust before every ride, or even every hundredth ride, and it also has to be easy for the person using it to correct as needed.

Provided you’re using good hardware (especially a good bowden cable), the traditional mechanical arrangement rather trivially manages those constraints. Drift is limited to slippage or stretching of the cable (and thus is always in the same direction, so you can even offset it a bit ahead of time), and ‘fixing’ drift just requires minor adjustments that anybody could do with one or possibly two relatively cheap tools.

Some more advanced systems, like Rohloff’s Speedhub, go a step further and essentially eliminate the drift issue by doing all the indexing internally and using a cable loop for a push-pull arrangement to actuate things. Cable slippage is a non-issue for these, cable stretch just makes the sifter a bit sloppier, and the internal indexing mechanism will generally last longer than the rest of the hub.

Wireless shifting also sidesteps these issues by moving the indexing to the derailleur or hub and then eliminating the mechanical aspect of transmitting ‘commands’ from the shifter to the drivetrain (and thus removing cable slippage and stretch as issues completely).

But hydraulics really aren’t like that for a couple of reasons:

  • They rely on the incompressible nature of the hydraulic fluid, but it’s impossible to make one that truly never leaks and can reliably transmit motion from one end to consistent motion at the other. And if it leaks, air will get into the system, and air is not incompressible, so it will significantly impact how the motion is transmitted. A (small) bit of air in the lines is not an issue for brakes because you can always just apply more pressure, but it is a major issue for something that needs precise positioning control. In purely mechanical terms, you can think of it like having a small spring replacing a section of the bowden cable. A bit of creative thinking should reveal all the issues that would cause trying to shift. Even outside of cycling, it’s very unusual to see hydraulics used in cases that really do need exceedingly precise motion control (the closest you get is hydraulic steering on some off-road vehicles and boats, but that also falls into the ‘just apply more force’ case when air gets in).
  • Unlike mechanical systems, proper maintenance of hydraulic lines for a bike requires a workstand, specialized tools that aren’t much use for anything else, additional materials (you need extra hydraulic fluid to properly bleed a system), significantly more time (by at least an order of magnitude, and additional skills beyond basic mechanical knowledge. This is not something most people are ever going to consider doing themselves.
  • Because such high precision is required, maintenance would have to happen all the time. This is compared to brakes, where bleeding the lines is often only needed after more than 1000 km of usage because, as mentioned above, you can always just apply more force to your brakes. For a shifting system it would probably be 100-200 km of usage, far too frequently for most people to want to deal with it.

Part of the issue could possibly be mitigated with a two-line system in a push-pull arrangement, but that would involve twice as much work for maintenance, would still need regular maintenance rather frequently for consistent behavior, and probably would not behave like most people expect their shifter to behave.

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    Rotor’s system puts the indexing bits in the derailleur, so if I’m understanding things correctly, the “just push harder” principle would still apply. If you approach the idea of a hydraulically actuated drivetrain from scratch rather than just using it as a drop-in Bowden replacement, it does seem possible to at least mitigate some fundamental concerns.
    – MaplePanda
    Commented Jul 23 at 11:56
  • @MaplePanda Yes, they do the indexing in the derailleur, but there’s still a practical limit on how much that mitigates the issue of precision. You either end up stepping only one gear at a time and shifting slowly, or you run the risk of overshooting and shifting multiple gears at once when you intended to shift just one. And indexing in the hub/derailleur brings it’s own set of problems, like ensuring proper synchronization between the indexing mechanism and the indicator up on the handlebars, and providing good tactile feedback that you’re at the top or bottom of the range. Commented Jul 23 at 16:45
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    @AustinHemmelgarn I'm nearly certain there's no gear indicator to sync at the handlebars. The Rotor group is marketed as a very high performance group. Gear indicators, in my limited experience appear on groups that cost 1/10th of what Rotor charges.
    – Paul H
    Commented Jul 24 at 0:28
  • @AustinHemmelgarn: You can design the indexing mechanism in the derailleur to shift only one gear at a time, no matter how far the shifter is pressed. If you want to have a feature for shifting two gears at a time (by pressing the shifter very far) you can still give it quite some margin.
    – Michael
    Commented Jul 24 at 8:12
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We started to get reliable electronic road groups in about 2010. Then, electronic groups started to dominate the high end of the market.

Hydraulic shifting systems would probably be more complex than cable operated systems. So, they should be more expensive to make. Hydraulic lines are sealed, but we still do have to bleed our brakes occasionally. Thus, they could have advantages on maintenance, but it's not guaranteed to be a major one.

In sum, hydraulic shifting would be competing against two well-established technologies. We can already see that the existing hydraulic shifting systems haven't really gained traction. It seems unlikely that hydraulic shifting would get major developments that would let it leapfrog electronic shifting. Furthermore, battery technology continues to advance for reasons external to the bike industry.

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Yes. Rotor created one several years ago and it is still available. I'm not up to speed with the latest of any of the components manufacturers outside of Shimano and SRAM, but Rotor's hydraulic road group was the first 13-spd group I heard about:

https://rotoramerica.com/collections/groupsets/products/1x13-road-adventure-kit

About hydraulic shifting, they say:

"Switching things up from the mechanical groupset you know well, the 1x13 is designed with indexing located in the rear derailleur, as opposed to shifters, which helps deliver its crisp, precise shifting inside of the robust casing. By locating the component weight in the back we're able to better distribute weight, and add more natural balance and stability to your ride. And in case you get a little wild on the road or trail, the 1x13 derailleur is protected by our reinforced Armored Box that protects against all external elements, shocks, and impacts."

enter image description here

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Two points: hydraulics are not slowly replacing cables in bicyclie brakes. Rather disc brakes use hydraulics for two important reasons. They can much more easily be designed to produce the large mechanical advantage [MA] necessary to transmit torque to the small rotors simply by changing the sizes of the pistons. And they are much stiffer (as in cables as a spring) so keep the lever travel needed to produce that MA to a minimum. Mathauser has provided hydraulic rim brakes for many years now, and while those cyclists who use them are very enthusiastic, they never took over. So, if you use disc brakes you likely use hydraulics; if you use rim brakes you likely use cable and housing.

What advantages would hydraulics bring to shifting? None really. The forces involved are small, so can easily be handled by cable and housing. Electronic shifting allows timing to optimize smooth shifting and can be programmed to step through every gear combination in sequence.

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  • Could you clarify what MA is?
    – MaplePanda
    Commented Jul 26 at 22:57

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